The Motorverse: Cars, Crypto and Web3 Gaming w/ Will Griffiths (Animoca Brands)

**Speaker A:** Foreign. **Speaker B:** Hello. Welcome back to the Strange Water Podcast. Thank you for joining us for another discussion. Today's guest is Will Griffiths, General manager of Animoca Brands Motorverse. Animoca Brands is a video game and venture capital company with a mission to deliver digital property rights to the world's gamers and Internet users. One of the most exciting projects in development is the Motorverse, an interoperable ecosystem of car centric games and experiences. This conversation is an incredibly exciting exploration of the intersection of Web3 and gaming. Over the next hour you'll hear a masterclass in everything from the issues with previous attempts at Web3 gaming, to creating AAA caliber Web3 native games, to building dynamic ecosystems, and so much more. One more thing before we begin. Please do not take financial advice from this or any podcast. Ethereum will change the world one day, but you can easily lose all of your money between now and then. Another note, during the following conversation you will hear both Will and I refer to specific car brands. These references are purely hypothetical and do not imply partnerships, products or games with these brands. Okay, and now Will Griffiths. Will, thank you so much for joining us on the Strange Water podcast. **Speaker A:** Great to be here, Rex, thanks for having me on. **Speaker B:** Of course, of course. So I am a big believer that the most important part of every conversation are the people in it. So with that as kind of like a starter, can you give us a little bit about who you are, how you found this space and like what ultimately brought you to building games? **Speaker A:** Yeah, sure. So I've always been a video gamer and a LEGO guy and so I went into engineering and I did an engineering degree in the UK and I popped out of that and ended up working in. I was working for an oil company for a while for bp and then I went into ethical hacking. I started working for a company called Accenture. You've probably heard of consulting company numbers. That was really interesting. So like breaking back security and explaining to people how to fix it and stuff. And then I decided I was kind of watching the game space and I decided to get into the game space. So I ran my own company at the beginning of the App Store and I had a lot of fun. I was really young, I didn't really make any money, but I met a lot of people and I decided that was the industry that I wanted to work in. So then I went and worked for a company called Natural Motion who make video games and I was a producer there on five different games and the last one was in the iPhone5 keynote which was like loads of fun. Also like mega stressful because it was all like new at the beginning of the whole like free to play era. And we got bought by Zynga on my last day and I moved to Australia and in Australia I, I moved there for family reasons and I got into casinos and online casinos as a living, not as a kind of, you know, a hobby. And that was, that was like totally like a, an interesting new world where we're taking these principles from games and then applying them to the, to the gambling space. I, I was part of a growth story of a company called VGW to went from a few sort of handfuls to several hundred people and we made, you know, quite an interesting foray into the online gambling space in the background. I got married and had two kids and then I decided to leave the. I was like, I kind of woke up, I was like, I'm working casinos. It's not something that I really wanted to, to, to do with my life. So I moved into, I moved into crypto and built a, with, with a small team here and we built a, a consumer facing fintech app that kind of takes you the roundup transactions from your credit card and invests them in a crypto portfolio. So that was loads of fun. I think that company's still going and around about this time we decided to move back to the UK and I started working for a company called Codemasters who made the Formula One games and the rally games and I was in charge of live service there and we built out their live service function. So that's like how you monetize after launch. And then that company got bought by Electronic Arts and I went into Electronic Arts and I was basically in their strategy team working out how to approach the metaverse and the future of sport and EA Sports and all this kind of stuff. So very, very interesting. But I was in the uk, in Oxford and everyone I worked with was in California and San Francisco. So this was like kind of a weird dynamic where everyone I'd worked with was asleep until sort of 4 o' clock in the afternoon. So I did that like we did some really interesting stuff where there for a year and then I decided that actually I wanted to work with people in my own time zone a little bit at least. And so I started looking around and I met Robbie Young who's the CEO of Investment for Animoca Brands and he told me about this ecosystem out here where they were basically combining crypto assets with racing games and racing IP and trying to sort of make sense of that. And they Had a few games live, they bought a few different studios but they, they needed someone to head it up and that's what I've taken as my role. So I've been at anoka for about 18 months and that's the sort of culmination of the first of nine to nine to ten months was this concept of the Motiverse which we launched in February this year at NFT Paris. So that's sort of my background. So yeah, it's like a, it's like a Venn diagram of like, you know, consulting crypto gambling. I don't know if you can have a four way Venn diagram. I don't think it works unless you do it in 3D. But then also video games and I'm. And racing and I'm right in the middle there. **Speaker B:** Awesome man, that's super cool. And I'm super excited to get to like the, the crypto aspect of this. But before we get there, I like would be remiss if I didn't queue in on this specific part of your story and ask you. So you, you went from like, you know, BP Accenture, then you went into games and then into gambling. And so I would love for you to talk about this transition from games into gambling. And like I think, you know, this is a, maybe a controversial statement, right. But like there is something inherently gambling about everything that touches crypto. And so I would love for you to just reflect a little bit on like what are the principles that you brought from gaming into gambling? What are the things you learned from gambling about gaming? And like I would love if we could kind of point this in towards like how does this inform Animoca and like the MotoGP universe? **Speaker A:** So Animoca's vision is to build the open metaverse and they're leveraging Web3 technology to do that. So it's sort of like the opposite of what meta set out to do, which is like a walled garden to. Yeah, Chairman's sort of vision is to make it fair for all and they're able. The cool thing about Web3 is it adds this financial layer that you wouldn't have necessarily been able to access easy. This transfer of value using fungible tokens or non fungible tokens. And so when I was, when I was working in video games, the games were making the, the transition it was around so 2010, making the transition from their premium model where people just pay a fixed amount and then they're able to then play the game as much as they want. And that kind of game is designed to just be fun like that at its core. So there was, there was this sort of transition where you have these designers who are like incredibly creative people who are really good at making like, like nice gameplay loops where, you know, you're, for example, in a first person shooter. Like the, the fun part of the first person shooter is being able to identify a target and then rapidly using the controls and some skill zone in on that target. And then the payoff is the, the kill. And it's. And, and so that's, that's what you, you find a lot of people who really good at that and really understand like the human psychology around that. And then in free to play games, it's hard because you're trying to make money after the point that someone's downloaded the game. So they started to insert these, they're called core loops where basically you finish a level, you get some reward. That reward allows you to upgrade your kit, your car, your guns, whatever, and then that makes you better and able to kill more monsters or beat more people in the next level. And they're able to insert a monetization step inside that, that out. So you can do it just by grinding or you can pay and get ahead and, and you know, progress faster. And then when I moved into gambling, it's, it's almost like it's gone. That that core loop in gambling already exists. It's, it's in it in its most kind of distilled form. Just, you know, it's quite ugly in some ways, but it's just taking that experience, making it random. So instead of like moving your gun around and shooting somebody, you just press a button and then you kind of hope that maybe you win. And if you do, then you, then you get your, your monetization element and then you can use that to, to go back into it. So to me, it was like a distillation of that core loop in its simplest form with intimate. And reward, which is intermittent reward is this thing that's sort of like a psychological thing. If you put a rat in a cage and it keeps pressing a button event and it sometimes gets something awesome and sometimes it just gets water that's more interesting to the, to the rat because they don't know what they're going to get than it's normally. So I kind of observed it from a, from a kind of gameplay point of view. So when I came into gambling, I wanted to make the gambling experience more fun. So my instinct was to like try and introduce skill and try and introduce something that People would want to play. But obviously the, the challenge with that is there's always, there's already some very well established tropes in the grant in the gambling industry where you know, it's a slot machine or poker, like there's these games, everyone knows them, there's not a lot of innovation going on around like the different types, they've already kind of taken shape. So you know, I learned a lot doing that and you, you become good at optimizing things like user experience and, and, and that kind of thing. But to me it was a little bit, kind of, I don't know, kind of ethically, you know, not really aligned with what I, what I really believe in, you know, and what I want to add to the world. So crypto to me is an, an interesting development because it means that you can basically build games that you, you're putting money in and to some extent there's a risk when you put the money in, but you also have control over the, the value of the assets. So what do I mean by that? I mean if you buy a car and spend a lot of time working on that car and developing it and taking it to different championships and winning different races and stuff, you're kind of building a story around that car so your time starts to have value. So it's a sort of heady combination of the two, not easy. So the transition from premium games to free to play games is a huge, quite a long process. Now free to play is really normal and there's well established ways of monetizing that people are comfortable with and understand. And I think we're seeing slowly that same process being applied to Web3 I. **Speaker B:** I this might be like the right segue to get us into motor GP and like, or sorry the motor verse and what it is. But I guess like the big question for me around gaming in crypto is like everything you said makes so much sense and like without putting any judgment on this, it's kind of like let's take the best parts of gaming which are the interactiveness, the like skill based progression, the ownership and like the just kind of like emotional attachment. And then let's take the best parts of gambling which are like risk and like upside and I don't know, there's bad size of gambling too, let's be clear. But the, the like perennial question of like how do we do crypto games is like we have items in games and we can make them like NFTs or express ownership or something on somehow but like if these items in Games are like, at the end of the day they're just useful in the game. Like what are, what's actually being built here? And how is this not just like building a gambling layer on top of like some company's game? **Speaker A:** Yeah, I think so. It's interesting. There are definitely parallels. I mean those people say this, right, but there's definitely parallels with free to play. So there was a period early on in the free to play phase, right, where the app store had a chart that was like the most popular game. And then they had a chart of games that as in the games that had the most downloads, but they had another chart of the games that made the most money, like top grossing. And so there were a bunch of, bunch of companies making games and then just selling them and, and you know, they'd be the top of that chart and they'd be really pleasing themselves and they were also at the top of the, the top grossing charts. And then over time, like some good examples of free to play games or some effective examples of free to play games started to rise up. And then over the course of about two or three years, suddenly the top grossing charts had no premium games and they were all free to play. So what the result of that was that you had all these studios that were really good at making premium games and the executives in the studios would have games in motion that were being built and they would say, oh hang on a minute, this is free to play thing, let's just do that because we'll make loads more money. And so then you had design teams that were not equipped or you know, with the kind of economic design and stuff to be able to, to change their current game into a free to play game. So you end up with these really weird bad examples of free to play. And it got really badly slammed and I think we see that. I have seen that in, in web 3 too. So you know, people are like, oh well, you know that they're starting with the technology and they're trying to like shoehorn it into a, into a game. And it doesn't really make sense. So, so if you can't just take a, a normal game and just make everything NFTs job done so that, so what we're trying to do with the motiverse is something of a different. So we're thinking about what are the, what are the core things that you can do with web3 that are new tools for, for games designers? And then what does that, what does that mean? Like what kind of games would we like to make and like, what kind of ecosystem would we like to enable? And that's where we're coming from. So we're trying to sort of build it from the ground up. So often describe it as having a tool set available to a design team and then there's like an extra compartment that you've just discovered with these extra tools in from Web three, and then just building it in holistically. **Speaker B:** So let me repeat back what you said and tell me if I got the point, which is basically up until what you guys are doing and like the newest, latest stuff, what crypto games essentially met meant is like, let's go find whatever's the top of the charts and figure out a way to slap crypto into it. And like, maybe we're slapping crypto into it because we think we can drive extra revenue. Maybe it's a marketing thing. Like, maybe we don't even know why, but our VC told us that crypto's good or something. But what you're saying is that that's never going to work because you're essentially asking like carpenters to go build a something out of glass. And what you're saying is that the approach needs to start like with the primitives at like ground zero and say, like, this is what Web3 brings to the table. Now, how do we build around that as opposed to this is what we have in Web two. How do we graft on Web three to it? **Speaker A:** Yeah, exactly. And also, you know, the way that the charts are constructed, you know, there is not a very mature ecosystem. So, for example, there's DAP radar, and it measures like, how many unique active wallets you have. And if you have many, many unique active wallets, then you might be at the top of the radar chart. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you have a recipe for success. It just means that you've worked out how to, you know, game that particular metric. So I think there's, there's, there's, people are still understanding how to attribute value to a wallet, for example. So. And what does an active wallet mean? Does it mean that somebody. I think it's measured. So it's like somebody connected their wallet and there was a transaction or some kind of smart contract activity associated with that wallet. But obviously you and I both know that that doesn't necessarily translate into value. So it's about, for me, it's about thinking long term, like, what is it the web3 can offer that's genuinely different to the mass market? And so for the mot of us, and I do this test. So when I lived in, so I've just moved to Australia. When I lived in the uk, we got kids in, in school and we go to the pub, you know, with the dads, you know, every couple of weeks now you just catch up and complain about having small kids. And we would talk about, you know, all different things, loads of different people, you know, like plumbers, engineers, like doctors, you know, knocking around, not, not many people in games. And so I'd sort of come up with different theories and ideas and then float them, you know, casually in the pub and see whether people kind of latched onto them. And the idea behind that was like, is this something that's actually meaningful to you, that it's easy to understand and digest and therefore this should have some kind of traction in the mass market. And for me, that is interoperable cars. So if I say I don't, I wouldn't describe as interoperable cars, but what I would say is, yeah, hey guys, check it out. Interoperable cars. But no, I would say, you know, you know, at the moment, if you want to play a racing game, you, you buy, you either buy the game or you download the game for free and then you probably identify a particular car that you're interested in and then you grind or you pay within that game to get that car. You complete some achievement to get that car. And that car is in that wall garden of that, of that game. But this is a new paradigm. You buy a car like you buy a car in the real world and then you take it to the games and you tell a story and you deepen your connection with the thing that you've bought because it's the constant, you know, it's like you have your little collection of things that you take with you around the world. This is, this is one of those things. And, and so they're like, oh, cool, get it? Yeah. So you just buy it once and then you can use it everywhere. Love it. So to me that that's where this ends. But you can't just click your fingers and make that happen. There's a whole load of, you know, hard work that needs to happen in the middle. **Speaker B:** So, okay, I apologize. I shouldn't have had us dancing around like the high, like the concepts. Like we need to just talk about what the motiverse is in order to continue this conversation. So let me just ask you straight up. What is the motiverse and why should I be excited about it? **Speaker A:** So, so when I started at Animoca, they, they basically gave me this Lego set. So there's a token, the Rev token, a fungible token that's been on the market for a while that's tradable on various different exchanges. **Speaker B:** And sorry, just to be clear, this token is not associated with the motor verse, it's associated with. With what? **Speaker A:** Oh no. So it is. So the Rev token is a tradable asset that is owned by Animoca and it's specifically for, it was, it was brought into existence for motorsports and racing space. **Speaker B:** I thought that maybe was like the shared governance token of like Animoca or something. But no, this is specifically for the motor also. **Speaker A:** So maybe a little context around Animoca. Animoca is a, a company that has this really bold vision to democratize basically the Internet using web3. And to that end they've raised lots of money and they, they have a stake in many, many, many different projects. I think there's 450 different projects in the portfolio. Within that there are some wholly owned subsidiaries and I look after the subsidiaries that relate to motorsports and racing. Okay. And they have multiple different tokens that are associated with different projects themed in different ways. They might be, you know, picks and shovel type plays or more to do with, you know, fashion or music or other types of, of video games. My, my area is the racing space. So I look, I'm looking at a market of people who identify as motorsports fans or racing gamers. And this rep token is intended for that, for that market. But it was, it was originally conceived around a couple of games. So they had a game with Formula one which was really, really successful and I think became more successful than anyone thought it would be. Got a little bit out of control and they, and they closed it down before I joined. But then they had another, another game called Rev Racing which is obviously linked to that token. And so what they, what they were asking me to do is to take this, take this token as to kind of store a value and the, the, the place where we can grow through the Network, work effective web3 and then build an experience around it using multiple different games and relationships to help kind of concentrate the demand for the token and, and, and create a place where these people can hang out. And that's what the motor is. So it's a, it's essentially the forecourt of the Internet. That is, that is the goal to, to basically be a place where when a car company makes a real world car, they pick up the phone to us and they say, hey, we need to launch a digital version of this. And then we basically Mint those cars and then they work in multiple different games and experiences. And it's all, it's, it's designed to bring this community together who is of like minded racing. Racing gamers, motorsports Fans and, and Web3 enthusiasts. **Speaker B:** Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what you're saying is like the motor verse is maybe this, like it's not a game. It is the layer under all of these games that are going to like pop out that are based around racing or have some sort of car component. And the motor verse is the property layer that expresses these cars and these upgrades and these wins and losses and that kind of thing. **Speaker A:** Yeah, so imagine so, so, so it's manifested in a website, motorbikes.com which we launched, you know, a few weeks ago and that is, is growing slowly into sort of Netflix for cars. So there's all these different experiences that you can take a car and, or a bike or whatever and enjoy. And at the top there's a four core where you can go buy cars and then there's your garage where you can, you know, check out different cars and upgrade them. **Speaker B:** Dude, that is so cool. And like I think what's exciting about that is the thing I really struggle with with web3 gaming is like so I, I'll admit it, like my head has been melted by World of warcraft for like 15 years. And like there's items in there, right? And like there's things I really care about because like I earned it literally 10 years ago when I was in high school or college I guess. But the idea that I would need to express that as property that exists outside the game or like it. It's hard for me to wrap my head around that. Like why, why would my like staff of wisdom be relevant outside of World of Warcraft? But what you're describing here like makes so much sense where like we create car. Like cars exist as a generic concept. We allow people to like own them and buy them and then the next level is like, okay, but now we need to create experiences where these things that you own are relevant and like don't. New stuff. **Speaker A:** Yeah, totally. I mean this is, this is a, this comes up a lot, right? So, and I've talked to loads of people, you know, who I used to work with about it around NFTs when, like at the beginning when I was, you know, thinking about getting into the space. So I think you're right. I think if you have a staff of wisdom that's really cool and maybe another game can figure out how to make sense of that in their game. But it seems unlikely because it's a wholly fictional world that's been created around like a whole load of different races in this really kind of in an esoteric, like, awesome experience. And that to me, maybe that gets solved like in the future, but I don't think that those kind of items are appropriate for interoperability. Whereas a car, to me is, you know, there's millions, probably hundreds of millions of dollars a year spent making car games that are faithful to exactly how they want people, how people expect cars to behave in the real world. Right? So if I make a game with a portion, I'm doing it for people who like Porsches. And the person who comes and plays the game wants that Porsche to feel as much like a real world Porsche as possible. So to me, the car is a, is a perfect place to start when you think about interoperability because you're. There's a set of metadata around a vehicle that describes exactly how it should behave and it should behave that way everywhere. Now, different games have different handling models and all this kind of stuff, but generally speaking, you know, cars still, they perform relative to one another in the real world. And it's possible to recreate that in video games. And it's already been done. So what I mean is, like, if someone says, like, what's the equipment? Someone said this to me the other day, like, what's the equivalent of bored apes in, in cars, we need to come up with the equivalent of bored apes. And my response was, well, they already exist. You know, we already, there are already, you know, Lamborghinis, Ferraris, you know, Alpines. Like these cars are that everyone recognizes their, their household, household names. There's this expectation of how they're going to perform. And like, you know, the, the brand is really well understood. And I think that's really helpful because if I make a, a, a Porsche, say we, we don't have Porsche in our, in our ecosystem right now, but let's say I make a Porsche. It's very easy for me to brief a team to, to deliver an experience that is faithful to Porsche. Whereas if it's a staff of wisdom, I'm like, hey, put this in your game. This is what it does in World of Warcraft. But I guess, you know, you need to make sense of that against your swords. It doesn't work. **Speaker B:** Yeah, and we don't need to get into this. But like, it doesn't even make sense for the business standpoint of anyone. Like, if I'm World of Warcraft. Why would I want people to like leave my ecosystem with like I want them, I want to capture them in. And if I'm this new game, like why would I want that? Why would I want Blizzard to be able to capture the payment and not like just create my own staff of wisdom? But I think so I think that goes back to the last conversation about like grafting web3 things onto web2 games. Just like it literally doesn't make sense. But I really. And sorry to be pendant or sorry to really focus on this, but I want to pick apart like why cars are perfect. And there's a couple of things you said here. So tell me, like why what you really believe in, is it that cars already exist in the real world and have these like real world connotations and so they like are a better candidate for this kind of thing or is it really about cars are a very interoperable game asset that have applications across like so many different things that it makes sense to start as that, as like the base asset. Or maybe a little bit of both. **Speaker A:** Definitely both. But there's a third, there's a third element here which is that for, for really quite a long time already cars and games have been photorealistic because they're less complicated than an octopus or something, right? So if you make, if you make a car and put it in a game and you're using like, you know, Unity or Unreal Engine, it looks like a real car. So to me that's really valuable because it's not, it's no longer just about the gamers. So if I, let's say I don't play video games, but I really like Ferraris, I can, I can look at an asset of a Ferrari on a, in a 3D render on a website or in an engine and I can appreciate it and, and I sense the value in it. And that means that the car brands, so you got these aspirational car brands with these amazing cars that are super expensive and very few people get to even drive on it, you know, and now this is a new way to like widen their funnel. So this is a way for people to experience true ownership of a, of a Ferrari or a Porsche or Ford or whatever in a way that they wouldn't necessarily been able to in the real world. And they can have that because it's interoperable and it's, it's moving with them rather than kept in a single walled garden. They can have this experience with it and take it with them as a belonging and show it to their friends on their phone and deep in there connection with the car. Like you, you know if you have a car. I don't know if you have a car but you, you kind of develop, there's stories that you, that you have memories that you associate with the car because it's been with you to different places on a road trip or you know, you took it for a track day, all this stuff. And I'm, I'm looking to recreate that experience but online. **Speaker B:** Very cool. So let's talk a little bit about like the layer above the motor verse, like the games and I would love like maybe if you could give us just brief descriptions of the games that are like available now and like less interested in talking about gameplay and more interested in talking about the dynamics that come from this interoperable ecosystem. So like how can my actions in one game like have implications for other games or for like my non game motor verse world? Like describe to me a little bit about how you're thinking about creating this like ecosystem that is like constantly cycling and creating value. **Speaker A:** We've got a bunch of games that are live. So depending on like how you count them and whether you include things in the pipeline it's, it's basically 10 different games and there is a mixture of their existing web two games that have been live that we don't want to try and shoot horn web3 into. And then there are web3 games that are relatively you know, nascent. You know they've got Thousands of users versus millions of users in, in our Web2 games. And then you have, we're building now, we've just launched this game. It's in early access Talk Drift 2 for MAR Studio in Melbourne. Grease Monkey Games. And that's, that's a triple A racing game that can accept pretty much any kind of vehicle. It's built In Unreal Engine 5, it's photorealistic. It's had like 400,000 downloads. So, so that's the direction that we're heading in terms of experience. But to make this ecosystem work we need to have the vehicle brands come on the journey with us. We need to have the studios come with us on the journey, we need to have the users. So the way that I think about it is if so we talked a bit before about like what's the long term goal? Mass market is easy to understand. You buy a car and it works in all the games. Okay, but how do we, how do we get there? We get there by talking to vehicle brands and having them come aboard with the idea that we're going to basically mint their cars and guarantee that they sell out because they work in more than one game, then they look beautiful and they've got this amazing brand behind them. But also we built this standard that allows other studios to come in and build games and those cars will now work in their games too. And that's really important because what that does is for those studios it solves for user acquisition. So imagine you've got a million people that own, that are holders of these car assets and then as a studio I make a game that supports those assets. All of those users are engaged, they're interested, they've spent money on these cars. They obviously like the space and the concept of it. They all receive a notification through the motor first telling them their car now works somewhere else, AKA they can go drive somewhere new. So we're expecting a lot of those people to come into those, those games. So that solves for user acquisitions is one of the most challenging things that studios have to deal with after they make a game. Look, there's loads of examples of amazing games that nobody knows about or fail because they don't get enough people coming into them, coming into them. But then we also have the, the, the way that we're doing the licensing means that we're sold for licensing as well. So these, that's another thing that these studios struggle with is that they, they want to obviously have all the cars in the game, but each of the, each of the car brands requires, you know, various different lengths of contractual dance and minimum guarantee payments and stuff in order for them to be allowed to use the assets. So it's a very attractive option for these, for these external studios to come and build against the motorburst standard. And then also all of those different studios get a cut of the sales of the central supply of car. So there's a sort of affiliate model. So if they, let's say we're trying to sell a hundred thousand of a particular model, everyone gets to try and sell that supply. So this creates an ecosystem where people get very good at selling cars basically because there's a sort of competition to sell them. So that's, so that's why the studios get involved because they get access to these vehicles and the users, the brands get involved because you know, there's lots of examples of brands that have sold car NFTs and then people complain there's nothing to do with them. And this is a, this is a problem and we're solving for that. The long term use Cases that people mass market come and buy them and they work everywhere. And in the short term, we're using our network of Web3 communities across these 450 different projects at Animoca to bring Web3 folk who already understand, you know, the concept of interoperability and can see the vision and believe in it, to get involved. And we invite them to the platform to join and to stake Rev and earn sort of loyalty points effectively. And that in itself that drives the adoption of the, that basically drives the market for the sale of the cards, but it also applies pressure to the token price. And the token price of Rev is really important to us because it's our store of value and it's how we reward our early adopters and it allows us to do things, interesting things like we can, we can do token swaps with other motorsports projects and then airdrop tokens from those projects onto our users to, and our stakers to reward them for taking part. And so this growth engine allows us, combined with the communities from all of the other Animoca portfolio companies, it allows us to basically drive the demand for the, for the cars, get the word out, have more and more interesting projects. And you know, with 10 projects already and more on the way, fairly quickly you end up in a situation there's a huge variety of choice, fairly kind of complete portfolio of different motorsports and racing experiences that would be attractive to anyone who's even remotely interested in the space. **Speaker B:** Yeah, I think the most important thing to cue on to what you just said is specifically about this system allows game studios access to actual brand name assets of multinational corporations that have more lawyers than people you've ever met in your life, kind of out of the box. And I just, the, the idea that like I could go get like four of my developer friends and we could spin up a game that is literally at this point now comparable to something like Forza or one of like the AAA game studios. Because like look man, the technology, we're all capable of it, like welcome to the future. The thing that we're not all capable of is brand deals, but that's kind of what you're solving for not necessarily on the consumer level, which you are, but more importantly, you're solving it on the developer level. **Speaker A:** Yeah, I mean it's complicated and there's different vehicle brands have different levels of appetite. So you have some who are really excited about being the first to be in this space and experiment and learn and then there's some who are like, we'll just wait and see what happens. And join later. But we have managed to secure some really, really kind of keystone type partners that are like, will hopefully lead the way. You know, often if you look at the trends in the automotive industry, you see that, you know, there's a few different brands that always are always trying new and exciting things and those are the ones that we have gone after. And yeah, they're pretty open minded to it. I mean I think their biggest concerns are around like the misuse of their ip. So we have to have a lot of like approval processes and stuff but that's something that we're absorbing on our side and it's, and it's also, you know, just, it's not an extra cost. It's not like they want to charge per game. They, they, the deal is with the motivers and they take a, they take a, a revenue share from the sale of the NFT cards. That's where their upside is in for, for the, for the brands but also being relevant to the new audience and bringing this new type of ownership. It's like if you think about like everyone who wants to own an amazing sports car, it's a lot of people and then like how many people actually end up buying one. And then there's this extra step in the middle now where you can maybe own a digital one for a few years and then this, this is a kind of standard kind of sales technique. Right. They're probably going to end up in getting, selling more real supercars in the real life. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And look like if people are skeptical here that like, like I can understand the pushback that like, okay, the distance between a affordable NFT and like a multi like quarter million dollar Ferrari is just like so large that like you're kind of talking out of your ass here. But I think that's wrong and I think the right way to look at this is like there's a reason that Ferrari's merchandise brand is bigger than the car. And that's because like people really identify with this stuff. They care about it, they buy stuff, they participate with it even if they can't reach like the like huge, huge dollar amount level. And so like you don't really have to convince me like all of these car companies have spent decades convincing me that this is the right play just through selling like Mercedes jackets and Porsche keychains and like totally, totally. **Speaker A:** And you know like it's an education piece. So we spend a lot of time talking to these different brands and you know, and also they come up with cool ideas too. You know, like some of them are like, well, hang on a minute. We could actually drive sales in the real world this way. So like, maybe that should be part of the deal. So like, if we, if we can send new leads to them and there's people showing up at their factory in real life, like showing their digital car, like, so there are conversations like that, like maybe there's a discount or something. **Speaker B:** Cool. So I want to take us out of Brand World and go back to like the power of interoperability for games and I want to look at the downsides a little bit. So like, there's so much awesome about interoperability. But like, the flip side of that is like, let's say that, you know, Rex Studios comes out with this like brand new game and it's a multiplayer game and like, I want it to be like competitive, but because Will went and bought like the Bugatti supercar like over in this world and like has all these assets, like he can show up to this game and just like completely dominate. And so I guess my question for you is like, how do you design games that like, take into account the fact that there's progress outside of the games that don't completely break gameplay? **Speaker A:** Well, I mean, I think in. That's another reason that cars are awesome. Because you, you know, in the real world this is how it works, right? Like if you, if you have a better car, you're faster now and that is more expensive. But normally it, it, that doesn't mean that you're not skillful. Like, normally the way that that's handled is you just have different classes of race or you, you know, so you be like, oh, this race is about, you know, Lamborghinis only. Or this is a, like you're allowed to have any level of modding or you have to have the most base car and it's, it's the same car for everyone and then we just see who the best driver is. So that's how I think about it. I mean like most video games that have cars in allow you to upgrade the cars throughout the game through one way or another. So and, and there's an incentive to do that because you want to get better. So you're either investing time or money to, to get ahead. I think the difference is like, you know, whether it's genuinely unfair and it's pay to win, which is not really what we're, you know, this concept of pay to win. **Speaker B:** I was going to drive you right there. Yeah. **Speaker A:** Okay. So, so there's this idea in. It comes up A lot. Like, so imagine when you, if you were designing a free to play game from scratch, you'd be like, oh cool, I'm going to make this cool game about cars and there's going to be like this mode where you can pay an extra hundred dollars in your cars like way faster than everyone else's. This is not fair or fun. Some games have experimented with it and there are like techniques where you have like deep levels of engagement that open up like so you feel like you've achieved as a player. So everyone like kind of respects you because you've, you've done that. So I, I think that it's totally manageable. Pay to win is not what this is about. This is about having an awesome car which you can take to different places. So like if you want to level the playing field in a game, you can do that at the flick of a switch. Anyone who owns this particular class of car can come and run in this race and any mods won't take effect. **Speaker B:** Yeah, totally man. I think what you're saying is that like it is up to the game designers to develop good games and that has always been the case, like whether or not there's like financial incentives or like pay to win mechanisms or whatever. Like it is up to game designers to, to build good games and like, yeah, maybe you're changing the dynamics a little bit by allowing outside assets to come into the game, but like design a better game and like the beauty of cars as like where we're like, you know, building our nucleus on how we're going to solve Web3 gaming is that like cars have this property that is like about identity and like how people perceive themselves that is like completely divorced from gameplay. And so like you can kind of build relationships with customers on that axis while not like really like having to contort or screw up the gameplay access. **Speaker A:** Yeah, it's, there's interesting, there's a lot of interesting conversations around how can you so, so imagine you really love cars and you own this car and your hobby on the weekend is to go into your garage and like tinker with it and add, add, you know, whatever cosmetic stuff or change the performance of the car. Like how do we create that in our world? And there are some really interesting ways that these designers who have been making car games for ages, like I was talking about earlier, that they've now got this extra like tool set. So basically you can, you can make design decisions that are kind of permanent decisions in your car that affect like you would, you know, if you like use an axle grinder to like reduce the weight or something, you know what I mean? Like, so there's a, there's this, there's this thing there and there's also this concept of tuning chips. So in cars you. There's like this computerized chip that optimizes, you know, how much fuel is used and all the rest of it. And that, that's a real, like, in the real world there's a real skill set around that. So longer term, I, I put them. It's not going to be live for a while, but one of my goals is to kind of, if you understand how cars work in the real world, I want you to be able to take them and do that in the motor verse and you know, be able to optimize things. And then maybe you like hash your things and no one knows what you've done on the inside, but you're then able to sell this tuning chip to people that means that they can stick it in their car and it performs differently. So there's a whole kind of meta game around that outside of the, the games themselves. **Speaker B:** Yeah, man, that's like, that is so wild that I don't even know how to address it. Because like, my question to you is like, okay, as a game studio, like, can I make not a game but like a tuning shop application that can like maybe like get better results than people modding at home? And like that can be a whole business built on this platform that actually isn't even a game. **Speaker A:** Yeah, absolutely. So the, the, I mean, we think about it often and because we have games and we have this idea that we're bringing other games, we think about it as, you know, in the context of video games. But it doesn't have to be. You could just in theory create really good shot for cars that allows you to do that. Or it's just very. You're all about trying to sell down on the central supply, you know. So I just want it to be an open ecosystem where multiple different experiences make sense. There's no kind of rules. It's not like, oh, this isn't a game, therefore we don't want to include it. It's like, oh, this is. I want to encourage innovation. And so this is another thing. So it's not like it's not intended to be a subscription or anything like that. It's not. So game pass, for example. I hope I get this right. This is my understanding of game pass. Like if it's slightly wrong, then apologies, Microsoft, but they, you know, they, they Bring games into their subscription, they'll pay the games some sort of fee. The range, an upfront fee for the game to publish in Game pass. And then depending on how well the game performs in terms of active users and time spent in that ecosystem, they can get extra bonus money each month. Okay, but the, the problem in is first of all you need to manage all that data centrally and there's this overhead that's associated with it. But also the, the two metrics that they focus on, the last time I checked were active users and time spent. Now that seems like a good, that that's probably a pretty good approximation but you're kind of forcing the hand of developers and designers. So they, they now thinking, now how do I get that bonus money? I'm going to have to have an appointment mechanic that brings people back every day. So they have many and users now making a good game doesn't necessarily mean that you. That's a good idea. So I just want to create this place where now you support the car. When this driver turns up in your, in your experience, it's over to you. How are you, like, what do you want them to do? Do you want them to come once and spend a million dollars or do you want them to pay nothing for months while they have loads of fun and then sell upgrades to them like when they, you know, when they're really meaningful. Do you want to have your own subscription? Do you want to just pay people at the front door or make people pay at the front door to get in? Or do you want to have, you know, races that you enter and you can like, you know, wager and the outcome between, you know, all these, all these models are fine. **Speaker B:** Awesome. And I think that's like the point of crypto is like you create robust systems and you make them permissionless and you let like anyone just like cook, you know and like come up with what they want and like their vision. So totally on board with that. I think we have only approximately 10 minutes left here. So I want to make sure that we hit the last big things which are one I need to understand like really how the rev token fits into this. Like I want to know as a, let's say I just am a gamer who is interested in playing all these games. I don't really care about car collectibles. Is the rev token relevant to me? Let's say I'm a collector and I don't care about games. Is the rev token relevant to me? If I'm a developer, Is the rev token relevant to Me, help me understand what the token is and how it ties together the ecosystem. And then just so you know, the last question I need to ask you about is tell us a little bit about the torque drift 2 and like, why that is exciting and like, why is that something that ultimately the audience, as soon as they're done listening, needs to go start thinking about. But first, let's talk about the rev token. **Speaker A:** Yeah, so the rev token is our store of value. I talked about it before and it's also a way that we engage with our community. So we've, we've just, as I mentioned, we just relaunched the brand of the motor and we've got a discord and everything. Go check it out and we're going to start basically allowing people who hold rev tokens to take part in, in votes on directions that we might take the ecosystem. So this could be like a crypto thing. It could be deciding about which brands we go after, that kind of stuff. So, so from a participation point of view, that's important. We also believe that it will increase in value based on all of the work that we're putting into it. So we, you know, that's, you know, it's not financial advice, but that's what, that's one of the main things that we're all working towards. And so, you know, it's a good opportunity for people to get in and you can, if you buy it and stake it inside our ecosystem, then we'll reward you with points and loyalty. And there's so many different experiences that we bringing together. So it's not just digital things, it's also, you know, the, in real life that we have a relationship with MotoGP, we're able to offer VIP experiences with MotoGP, we work with lots of different tracks and all this kind of stuff. So there's a lot, there's a, there's a lot to, there's a lot of stuff that you can give away off the back of that. But for me it's really neat as a way of exchanging value inside ecosystem. So if I'm running a part shop, I can start taking payment in rev and we've got all this stuff set up, so this is really cool and just generally the price of it helps us as a team. So focus on the North Star of. It's our metric for seeing how the whole thing grows. And also we're able to take it to other partnerships. So we have like four or five different people that we're talking to who, who have their own token in you know, whether it's a motorsports project or a particular vehicle brand and we're able to do swaps with them. So this helps us kind of grow together so that all these people who've taken bets in the Web3 space, we can create this sort of connective. Motors is the, basically the home of all the motorsports tokens is how I think about it. So what does success look like? Well, in a few years time obviously we hope the price has gone up, but we'll have lots of different other motorsports tokens in our treasury and a lot of connective tissue between all these communities. And that's one of the things that web3 is so good for is that you know, everyone talks about community like in any kind of, you know, any kind of initiative. But here when people have something that they can own, buy, sell, watch, appreciate, share with their friends, people tend to engage more deeply. And so it's a, you have this much, much more kind of this richer community experience basically where people are, you know, sharing in the upside of the, of the project and everyone becomes an evangelist for it. And without the rev token, I mean you can still try attempt this, this project, but I think it, it's the thing that unites us all. **Speaker B:** And you know, I, I literally until this moment I have never once heard of a token swap that I thought made sense. But like this is it, right? And it's because it's not like something about the treasuries of the two projects, but it is allowing like the rev token and the ecosystem to like just be an ecosystem. And I can totally imagine like let's say I own a Porsche and like I, I like this one game, that's why I bought the Porsche. I only play that. But then I find out that through rev staking or maybe just as a giveaway for owning Porsche or whatever, like this other project with this token like sends me something and I'm like okay, interesting, like what, what's going on here? And that's like just something that would never ever happen in web2 gaming. Like the idea I it, it is there's no analogy. There's no analogy. And so super interested, super interesting how the rev token like acts as almost like a fiber that knits the community together. On the player collector side I'm wondering, does that, does the rev token have any implications on the developer side? Like for example, do you, let's say require them to stake X amount in order to participate with these NFTs or to like link into the motor verse chain or is there Any sort of way that like, developers are formally engaging with the Rev Token? **Speaker A:** Yeah, absolutely. So we, with our, with our subsidiary studios, we look to incentivize all of them with the Token because, you know, they're really just part of the team. But yeah, like we, we're one. We're exploring a lot of different models. So one of the things, you know, that I said at the beginning is we don't want to try and shoehorn something in like too early. So transparently we're doing this. The first interoperable car launch will happen for our ecosystem with this really. It's a really awesome brand in the next few months and that's just very exciting. Anyway, but the whole, there's a whole. As we've been through this process with all these different studios building this Internet games to support it, we started to sort of uncover like, we understand the cost of doing that, trying to work out what the right model for them to. For this to work. We're really lucky because we've got these internal studios so we can be funding them and we can like test it out, work out the total value that's available and understanding the challenges around building the models for the games. So one of. So some of the ideas we've got are things like we talked about the affiliate model. Like that if they're generating sales, they'll get. They'll. We'll pay them in Rev. All of the cars are sold in Rev centrally. So that's the, the. If you want to buy one of these things, you got to buy Rev to buy it. But then we're thinking like, if a studio has built the models for a car, we can put that in a, in a place where other people can get access to those models to speed up the development on their. In their studios by basically paying the other studio that did the original asset in Rev. So there's, there's a lot of. Basically all that kind of stuff is emerging and we're understanding the different requirements and the different kind of Es and flows of when money is needed in the process for development and the kinds of risks that we'd be asking people to take at different points in their development cycle. And those. That's the kind of devil in the detail. But the brilliant news is, is that, you know, Rev is a very easy way for us to like, transfer value. And as we go, the whole kind of tide should rise with it. So a lot of our partners very happy to take payment in Rev because they know that the plan. **Speaker B:** Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're Not. It's not like basically a promise, an MMD promise. It's something with real economic value. And I think like the real interesting thing to. To notice if you're like an entrepreneur or thinking about how to build in this space is like you guys have, you know that there needs to be some sort of dynamic between the substrate layer, the motor verse and the game studios. But you're not sure what it is. And instead of enforcing stuff that might be like prohibitory or like causes people to go run away or whatever, like instead you have this model where you own the first game studios. You can experiment with them. You can figure out what works like organically. And then finally once you figure it out, you can turn it to the external partners and say this is how our system works. **Speaker A:** Yeah, totally. But that doesn't mean we're not talking to external partners already. We are. But you know, it's. It is a work in progress. For sure. **Speaker B:** For sure. For sure. Okay, last thing. Let's talk about torque drift 2. So like first of all, just give us the elevator pitch. Like what's the game? Why is it exciting? And then yeah, we'll. Let's pull together all the themes and the big things we talked about to say like how Torque Drift 2 like really represents this whole new era of. I don't even want to call it gaming anymore. It's somewhere between gaming and collecting and just self identity. **Speaker A:** Yeah. Okay. So Torture two is like. It's really cool. So the studio that makes it is run by Aaron and Billy over in Melbourne. It's called Grease Monkey Games. And these guys are. They've gone like full, full native in the space. So it's a. It's a game about drift racing. But these guys have their own drift cars. Most of the team enjoys drifting in their spare time. So the weekend they finish like developing and then they go and drive 45 minutes away to this track and spend the weekend drifting. So this is. So it's being made with passion by these guys and that they're very talented team. They're using Unreal Engine 5, which not sure if you're familiar with, but it's the sort of sort of gold standard for graphics at this point. And so it looks incredible. It's in early access. Which basically means that it's, you know, it's kind of like a test but an open test. So there's lots of people using it. We've had about 400,000 people through it. And it's the first AAA racing game in Web three. And it's free to play. So you know, they're trying to do a lot of. At the same time. So. Yeah, and they've recently, I mean they've got amazing deals with amazing brands already. These are not yet interoperable but they're working with Nissan and Honda and Toyota and a few others. And I know what their pipeline is and it's very exciting and we're starting to. We're working with some of the brands exploring how we, how we make these things interoperable. And they, they've just launched this big update. So essentially now the game has a whole new mode called Freestyle which is like, you know, basically it's a playground where you could, once you've learned how to drift, you can do all these tricks and stuff. There's like different. I think it's called a wall tap where you kind of. You go past the wall and you just give it a nudge, kind of a relative low speed, but the wheels are all spinning. It's. It's cool. There's a lot of content out there. You should go check it out. It's on the Epic Games Store. It's got a. It's got a whole. It's got sim rig support. There's. Yeah, I mean there's not much to dislike about it other than it's just not. It's not completely finished yet. I think the full game will be live in Q4, but there's a lot of people having a lot of fun in there. And there are. So you can buy Web2 assets in there which just, you know, if you want to play it like a normal free to play player, you can do that. But you can also buy NFT versions of the cards. And it's. And we're slowly. And those cards you can buy with rev at a discount. And we're slowly work. We're kind of picking our way through. How do we make sense of this? We've got this large audience of web2 type players and we've got this goal to bring other people in who are buying interoperable cars into the ecosystem. So it's about how do we have someone driving around in a web 2 car and look over and see a web 3 car and how do they know that they're looking at that? And why is that awesome? And this is a sort of education piece that we're doing well. **Speaker B:** Why. Why do you need to sell like a Web2 version and an NFT version? Why can't it just be like I buy this car and I don't even know what it is on the back end. But every single time you're going to issue nft and I'm only going to realize that if I go into the. **Speaker A:** Menu to export car, there's a mixture of different reasons. So the web, two parts very well understood. So it's easy. We know we can very predictably generate revenue from that. And it's important that these studios, you know, we actually want to make money as well. And so we, so we, so we have that, that experience which is very kind of well understood. And that's what a large proportion of people coming to the game experience. And then the NFT part is more of a kind of education piece. So when you go to buy a car, you go, okay, I can buy, I can buy this car for like 10 bucks, blah, blah, or I can buy the NFT version of it, which is actually tradable and I can own outside of the game and maybe we'll work in other games in the future. And that's quite a, that's quite a big leap for some people. And NFTs are, you know, there's definitely, we had a lot of backlash when we launched around having NFTs in the game, which I understand. I mean, like, it's a totally new thing and NFTs, like you said, I don't know if it was before we press record, but we're talking about how there are a lot of people in, you know, who've had bad experiences in crypto and you know, so the NFTs are a bit of a, kind of, you know, bit of a swear web for some people. And I totally get that. So, so for me it's about, you know, forget about the technology and people talk about this a lot, but it's like, I hope in a year's time or maybe two years time, people won't be asking about whether it's an NFT or not. They just will expect that it works in multiple places. It's kind of like saying, hey, we've made this amazing game on aws, you should check it out. Like it's, it's kind of irrelevant to the, to the, to the audience. **Speaker B:** No, I, I think that's a fair point. And like maybe in a world without Sam Bankman fried or a lot of things that have happened in this, like we're not even having this conversation. All you see is the button to buy a car and then that also appears in your motor verse account. And like, but yeah, people do have allergies to crypto and that's Just something we have to deal with. And honestly, it's something that we deserve. **Speaker A:** Yeah. And I guess. I guess the other thing. So I didn't fully answer your question. The other thing is around the, you know, why not just have it all in the back end and they can discover it, like, as they go through the game. And I would really like to. To be there. And we talk about that a lot, but there are. There's infrastructure and cost around and gas fees and all this kind of stuff around the stuff. So if you do it at scale, so if you have 400,000 people come through your game and they all buy these assets and there's these. There's this thing going on the background. They don't understand it's costing you money and they never leverage it. But it's. The good news is it's easy to do. Like, as soon as they get it, like, we can make it happen. So, like, inside the game, you can be like, oh, okay, I want to make this an nft. Cool. So off you go. And it's more like that. **Speaker B:** All right, last question to walk us out on. So I. I'm gonna cut myself at the knees here and already say, obviously the answer is both, but taking both off the table, like, in the. Do you see this more? Like, which way do you see users flowing? Do you see users saying, like, holy crap, this is like a really cool game. Like, I want to. I just want to buy this game because it's cool. And then, oh, wow, there's NFTs and, oh, wow, there's a whole motor verse. And now I'm like, go from these AAA games into the motor verse. Or do you foresee this more the other way? Which is people come to the motor verse, people are interested in collecting, and then notice, like, oh, my God, there's all these different games and different, like, venues for me to use these collectibles. I know the answer is both, but if you had to be pinned down to one, like, how do you real, like, understand the dynamic as we, like, go through the growth phase of both crypto and crypto gaming? **Speaker A:** So I think that, you know, because we can make these games that we know, we know appeal already to the mass market. I don't want to stop doing that because this is. I mean, this is great. And that's what the guys love doing, and they're really good at it, and it's really fun and it's awesome, and it would be wonderful if they all immediately went to the motorburse and got it and it was all brilliant and amazing. But one of the things that. So we organize ourselves around, like there's a central team that's building the Motorburst website, doing all the thinking around the economy and, you know, how we integrate the games into that. And then we have the studios and we, we all meet together, but the studios are working on their games and they have common problems. So we work with, with them. And one of the, the goals of the studios is to try and try out lots of different things in our games to get Web two people into Web three. Right. So this is one of their big things. It's like if you can, if I, if you can send people to the motorb, we're really, really happy. Like if you can find a way to do that sustainably from your Web2 audience. But that's not to say that I expect a lot of web3 native people to come into the Motor Verse itself and then go the other way because they're coming in for a different reason. You know, they're coming in because they want to read the story and believe in the vision and stake rev and then the get. And then they've got loads of cool games to play while they're, while they're at it. So it's definitely both, I mean, art for the motiverse itself, which is, which is, you know, the big push. At the moment, we're leaning into the Web three communities to basically bring as many people from those communities because we think they'll understand it better. But those aren't necessarily exactly the same people who are playing these games on Epic Store that we're, that we're publishing. So it's a, it's a, it's both. And I guess as we go we'll be like, oh, these guys are now turning into racing gamers and these racing gamers are turning into people who are interested in the interoperability piece. **Speaker B:** So, yeah, no, man. And of course the answer is both, but like, the answer is both in like the most positive way. Because if we're talking about users finding the games and then being onboarded into Crypto, like, congratulations, world, we just figured out how to get retail in here. And if we're talking about the other way, it's. We're finding actual applications for all this speculation that we've done over the last 15 years, like things that are actually fun and you want to do and are not just about buying the next token. And so like, it doesn't matter which way you consider the flow. Like, it is like what this industry needs on both sides. **Speaker A:** Cool. I'm glad you agree. It's, it's, it's. It's a very interesting project. There's a lot of those. It's so multifaceted. So we, you know, our biggest challenge actually is just focusing on the right things because there's so many potential ways we could go in different partners. So we're very much in a kind of test and learn phase as we go. But it's great to get the brand out and have the website live. So if I encourage people to go and look@motorburst.com, go and check out torque drift, to have a look at the roadmap on the motorbase and see what's coming. It's. There's plenty. There's plenty in store. **Speaker B:** Yeah. Awesome. Well, you kind of got ahead of me a little bit because I normally. I would say, well, thank you so much. Like, this has been incredible. Can you please tell the audience where to find Motor Verse and find you? So let me rephrase with audience right now. Push pause. Go check out motor verse.com. like, let's actually put some, like, visuals and some, like, feeling into all the things we've been talking, talking about. And then will just. Man, thank you. Thank you for helping me understand, like, this promise of Web3Crypto. Not only, like, how it's going to happen, but why, like, why would it happen and why is that relevant to both me as a gamer and me as a crypto person? And so just, man, I'm so excited about what you're doing. I'm so excited to see what comes next. And you kind of sprinkled in, like, five different Alphas in there. So we definitely need to have you back in the next couple months once those Alphas are ready to bloom and talk through, like, what's coming for down the pipeline. **Speaker A:** Yeah, it's been really fun talking and I enjoyed it and I'd be very happy to come back. **Speaker B:** Yeah, awesome, man. Well, I'm looking forward to it and man, thank you and have a good rest of your day. **Speaker A:** Thanks, man.