Decentralization Maximalism w/ Superphiz

**Speaker A:** Foreign. **Speaker B:** Hello and welcome back to the Strange Water Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us for this week's episode. There is a lot of drama happening in the world of Ethereum right now. Whether it's watching Caroline spill everything about FTX to figuring out if Uniswap is going kyc, or trying to stay out of the way of the Fed and the SEC and Gary Gensler, there is a lot to be thinking about right now. But there's one thing that we as a theoryans can never take our eyes off of. Something that in both bear and bull markets, is at risk. Decentralization now, decentralization can be a tricky word, and it means a lot of different things to many different parts of the crypto ecosystem. But if we narrow our focus just to Ethereum mainnet, decentralization is the idea that no one person, organization, or even nation directly or indirectly controls any meaningful part of the Ethereum protocol. With decentralization we have the World Computer, a credibly neutral platform by which all of humanity can participate. It does not matter if a government wants to take your property or if you must leave your home with nothing but what you can carry in your own two hands. Credible neutrality guarantees that you control what you own no matter what. Today, Ethereum is mostly decentralized, but that decentralization is at risk. If any one piece of the World computer is compromised by centralization, all credible neutrality is lost. And without credible neutrality, all Ethereum is is a very slow, very expensive, very inefficient version of aws. So Ethereum must not only remain decentralized, we must push for it to decentralize further. And I cannot think of any person who not only understands this, but has put so much of his own effort and reputation into fighting for decentralization than today's guest superphys. Superphys is a true crypto og, someone who was building in crypto before Ethereum even existed. Today he is a core part of the Ethereum community and perhaps the most prominent advocate for decentralized staking. Today's episode is a real treat. There are few people more enthusiastic and optimistic about Ethereum than superphys. During this conversation we'll talk all things decentralization, like why decentralization is so important, how to understand and solve the current LSD centralization problem, and we'll even touch on some of the other centralizing threats elsewhere in the technology of Ethereum. One more thing before we begin. Please do not take financial advice from this or any podcast. Ethereum will change the world. One Day, but you can easily lose all of your money between now and then. Okay, time to start the show. Super Fizz. Thank you so much for joining me on the Strange Water podcast. Super excited. **Speaker A:** Hey, yeah, thanks. I'm glad to be here. **Speaker B:** Cool. So my core ethos is that I believe that the most important part of every conversation is the people involved. So with that as the opening statement, can you tell me a little bit about who. Who you are and like, specifically how you found Ethereum and like, what was the moment that made you believe enough to, like, sacrifice your reputation and career and all that jazz to get into this? **Speaker A:** Yeah, these are. These are things I love to talk about. So it's funny, I actually remember the moment when it's kind of like, I really. Well, there are a couple moments I remember. So I'm Super Fizz. I. I used to call myself the Beacon chain community health consultant. I don't know if I still call myself that. I kind of remove that. But the things that I do are very much driven by my passion for the success of Ethereum and my belief in decentralization and really in an empowering individuals to be a part of something worldwide. And I think a lot of that for me came from having years of feeling like I couldn't be a part of it. Like, maybe I didn't have enough Ether, or I didn't, you know, I wasn't. My views didn't matter or my votes didn't matter. And I really found this. This desire to empower other people to be an actual part of the Ethereum chain. And so, you know, if enough people are a part of the chain, then we have this really powerful, decentralized chain that it serves that ultimate need. It's immutable, it's worldwide, decentralized. We've met our goals and that comes through empowering people. But to go back, I found bitcoin in, like, April 2011. The moment I found it, I just. I became obsessed with the whole concept. And so, you know, in Bitcoin, I. I did many of the same things that I do in Ethereum with a different pseudonym then. But I remember sitting at a coffee shop near my house flipping, you know, through. I guess it was. Reddit is fun. And I. I saw a link to Vitalik's white paper. I knew who Vitalik was because I had read his stuff in Bitcoin magazine and I was like, oh, that's. That's exciting. This. This guy who then I guess I regarded him as a kid, is. Is doing a startup. And I Sat in the coffee shop and read that white paper and I had this distinct feeling of like, I, I can't quite grasp this, but I know that it's going to change everything. And so I just, I became obsessed with it and I was like, I'm going to, I'm going to put all of my Bitcoin into Ethereum. And I didn't do that because I was, you know, there, there were so many at the time, so many new chains and, and if you, if you sacrifice your whole stack on one thing then, and it doesn't work out, then, you know, you're gone. And so I was very careful, but I did, I was a part of all of the, the early public Ethereum stuff. One of my interesting fun claims to fames is claims to fame. My buddy and I were able to, to crash an early Olympic test net and we just, we were so tickled that we, we took it down. **Speaker B:** No, man, that's incredible. And as someone. So I remember reading the Bitcoin white paper when I was studying computer science in undergrad and remember thinking like, like Internet money, like I don't really know or care, like whatever. And for me I didn't find like this whole space but really Ethereum until 2021. I heard Hayden Adams on a podcast, on a Bloomberg podcast explaining what Uniswap was and what Ethereum was. And like, you know, I don't have to explain to you. That blew my mind wide open. And it's just, it's so awesome to talk to people like you who, when I go read the Ethereum white paper that my, the first thing I think is like, how did all of these people but Vitalik see this far into the future? Like these, these are the exact things that we're talking about now that are just starting to become possible with like cutting edge mathematics and technology that is ZK and like that kid who was mad about World of Warcraft wrote about it in 2013 or 14. That's incredible. **Speaker A:** It's funny, you know, I remember distinctly when I first read it, I was like, let me imagine all of the ways that I'm going to use smart contracts. And, and I had these fantasies of developing really complex smart contracts without really understanding the complexity. And if anything is different than what I expected, then it's that there are far fewer smart contracts and they're all far more complex than I really could understand. They're not really the one off factory kind of thing. And I still sort of look for that, that panacea of like a Drag and drop, smart contract creator that, you know, has the safeguards built in. But yeah, it was so, so exciting to, to feel that spark but also to not really understand what I was excited about. And I'll be honest, like it's probably eight years later and I still don't, I still don't understand a lot of what my fuel is or what that I'm not any brighter than I was then. **Speaker B:** Well, let me map like a little bit of like the feelings that I'm getting onto this story and like tell me if this resonates with you, which is like I entered Ethereum through the lens of finance, right. Like I, that I was in corporate finance before, that's my background and like I thought Defi was just like a better system and honestly like I've wired over a billion dollars before. Like does it, it is sorry for another time. It just doesn't work and it's slow and it's, and you don't know where your money is for eight hours. And like I, I still think that Defi is going to revolutionize finance but I think it's going to be in like ETH transfers and ERC20 tokens and not in like weird derivatives and like VE locking systems and all this stuff. But like let's talk about how the world has changed since 2021 or really since 2020. Like I'm watching things like the, you know, going back a little bit, like watching the Iran deal being torn up and watching Cuba close again to Americans and watching like the Russia war and like the impacts on both sides for what that means for like financial systems and like taking it all the way up until this last weekend, right. Like what's going on in Israel? And I just like the world is falling apart quite frankly. It is and it's like the nation state system, the way we used to coordinate is clearly like not up to the challenges of everything from a repolarizing world to climate change, all this stuff. But like, I don't really know how to explain it, like just like you do. But the more the world falls apart, the more Ethereum starts to like make sense to me. **Speaker A:** Yeah, I definitely, I have this hesitancy of like are we taking, are we creating a new system that's going to be just as bad as the old system? And the, the solace I get is my belief that we are empowering more individuals and that individuals, you know, they may, they may have flaws and they may act in greedy ways but they're not, they're not hell bent on world destruction. They are, they're more hell bent on like feeding their family and like meeting their personal goals. And I really feel like if more individuals are empowered, then there's less of this worldwide leader strife going on and more of a just, you know, more empowered individuals. I have this, I hope it's not a flawed belief, but I have this belief that on an individual level people are good and they want good things and if you empower them and disempower these, you know, corporations and countries, then you're going to have better outcomes for everyone. **Speaker B:** Yeah, no, and I'm about to get myself in a lot of trouble here. But so like for me as like the sheltered American that I was, like, I've been working my whole life to fix that, but the thing that shattered it for me was February 2022 when the war between Russia and Ukraine started. And like that for me is because my fiance is Russian and like she lived there until she was 15, she came alone, her whole family's still there. Like I say what you will about the war, all war is bad and there are aggressors and their aggressors are wrong. But like the way I've been experiencing this war is like helping my future sister in law understand how to get access to like Spotify and Instagram and like how to like help these people, like get their bills paid and like understand and like get in and out of the country. And man, like I can go on and on about that but you know, this is where I'll get myself in trouble. Like I'm just so struck by like the stat that there's 2 million people in Gaza and 40 of them are under 14. Like that is so crazy to me and I really do, like what you said resonates with me that it's kind of hard to find in Americans, especially like Americans that are doing well, that like there's like thousands of people on this planet that have power and are evil and do really bad stuff and then there's like billions of people on this planet that just are like trying to live like dignified lives and failing at that, honestly. And so, you know, when I look at Ethereum, like what I look at is like the ability to, to do a lot of things but like at the end of the day to take back some of that power. **Speaker A:** Yeah, that's, you know, you, you talk about the, I guess wars have two sides. I, you know, I, I have, I have my opinions on the sides, but at beyond those sides there are those individuals, the people who are just trying to get through, who have no part in this, who have no desire for the conflict, but they're suffering as, as a result of it. And I really do believe things like cryptocurrency can empower those people to meet their, their daily basic needs. Like, I can have money for groceries, or I can send money for groceries to a person who, you know, is otherwise suffering. You know, I think a lot of people in cryptocurrency accuse me of being too optimistic. But if, if we, if we don't believe in people, if we don't believe in humanity, then, you know, why are we trying? I just, I can't buy into this, you know, ultimate greed kind of thing. I really believe that if we don't have faith in humanity, then we're already lost. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And, yeah, it does make, like, getting up every day, like, a little more, a little easier when, like, there's something to fight for. But anyway, let's. Let's center this back on crypto. And so while we're still in your background, the moment that Ethereum comes around is like a huge moment. Right. And it's a huge moment in a lot of ways, but in one way it's because it's like, created a schism right. In the world of crypto, which up until that point was essentially bitcoin. And then bitcoin forks and really created this. Let me just ask you the question directly. Why do you think that you are one of the people that saw the Ethereum white paper and got super excited by it and was not a person who saw the Ethereum white paper and said, like, no, the point of this is bitcoin. We need to stay pure in bitcoin. **Speaker A:** Yeah. So at that time, I had been reading lots of white papers, you know, the, I guess Litecoin split off in 2020 or, sorry, 2012, and the Bitcoin Talk forum was filled with these altcoins, and there were, you know, altcoin altcoin wars. And I, I dabbled in all of them and just, you know, I was very excited about the potential of, you know, of the general technology. And at the time Bitcoin would say, it's, you know, it's great. Try all of these other things and whatever is really great, we'll just bring it back into Bitcoin and we will continue to evolve and we'll add in whatever experimental things are really valuable. But Ethereum was different for me because it was not, it wasn't a bitcoin clone. And, you know, I don't know if I, I wish that I could say I sensed the ethos then, but I didn't know the ethos. I didn't, I didn't know Vitalik. And you know, to be, to be very honest, my transition wasn't instant. I continued to participate with Bitcoin for a lot of years, probably until 2017. I participated until I felt like the, the leaders of Bitcoin had really gone awry. They began censoring. I was active in the Reddit and they, they did a lot of really inappropriate things in the community and to maintain a, a narrative that wasn't really the thing that was happening. And I didn't, I didn't leave Bitcoin to go to, I left the Bitcoin to go to Ethereum because Ethereum was superior. But it, Bitcoin made it very easy. They, I didn't, I no longer felt drawn to their, their product or their, or their community. Whereas Ethereum was onboarding all of these minds, all of these researchers and it's, it was growing so quickly. The community was strong and positive. And you know, I really draw this distinction of, of Bitcoin is like machine gun enthusiasts and Ethereum is unicorn enthusiasts. And you know, I'm a unicorn enthusiast. Like, I'm okay with that. That's, I, I, I identify more with that. And so the transition was slow. It was, it was never really difficult because every day Ethereum just made more sense. And I really feel like that happens for a lot of people because I've said before that I know a thousand people who have left Bitcoin to go to Ethereum, but I don't know any Ethereums who have left Ethereum to go to Bitcoin. So it's kind of a one way gate. **Speaker B:** No, I think the answer to my question was like Rex, you just like fundamentally misunderstood that moment. And it wasn't like the schism where some people were like, this is interesting. And some people are like, no, Bitcoin forever. Like that kind of came over time and came later. And that's what I'm reading back into the past. Does that sound right? **Speaker A:** Yeah, that was not a hard schism at the point. There were so many competing coins at the time. Ethereum emerged slowly. It made more sense to people who were paying attention slowly. There was never like, okay, Ethereum Mainnet launched today. To hell with Bitcoin. For most people that I knew that I was engaged with at the time, it was, yes, Bitcoin is still superior. But let's also check out this really interesting thing that we keep hearing about. **Speaker B:** Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. So let's like kind of quickly move through like the next, God, I guess almost a decade of Ethereum. But like when you think about the whole stretch from you know, like the release of like Mainnet to you know, like the Dao, the Shanghai attacks, like everything up until like let's say SBF and ftx, like what do you feel like are the most critical points that lead us to like the Ethereum we have today? And when I. The Ethereum we have today, I don't mean on a technical standpoint or a financial standpoint or any of that, but I mean like the vision that you and I shared a couple minutes ago of like this, whatever it is, is the platform that is going to enable like a Internet empowered, like post state world. **Speaker A:** You know, I really think Ethereum is, is maturing in terms of values. And it's really funny on Twitter, you know, there's this constant back and forth of like people who are like capitalists first and then people who are like, well, we're also building a chain. And I think the past 10 years have really given people who are deeply invested in the potential of Ethereum to kind of solidify those, those values. The values that say above all, Ethereum is a public good. Ethereum must be decentralized. Ethereum cannot be captured by any operator. That Ethereum is willing to change, that we're willing to grow, that, you know, we look forward to ossifying in the future, but we recognize that right now we're in a time of rapid development. It's, it's this whole idea of, I would say it's like a form of humility that says we're working on it. Like that's it. Like we are working on it. We don't have all the answers. And I love talking to developers who are like, who are very willing to take suggestions from the community and apply them. I don't see any of that happening in other chains. I see one, or usually it's one thinker who has the master plan and that's what happens in Ethereum. I, you know, I have so much respect for Vitalik because he openly does not want to be the benevolent dictator of Ethereum. He wants to be a researcher and he, he puts out these ideas and I have become so comfortable disagreeing with his ideas and I don't, I don't argue him because, okay, he's like 86 times brighter than I am, but I'm comfortable saying, ah, Vitalik, that's, that's probably not a great idea. And the, but the thing is it opens up this discourse and you have hundreds of researchers, thousands of people who are bantering about these ideas and developing in them and hardening them and throughout time. That, that kind of humility really allows Ethereum to become a stronger and more robust chain. That's, that's what I love about it. And that's what kind of how I see our community values is that we're growing the chain. We're not, we're not trying to, I was gonna say we're not trying to be right, but that's not the way. We're not, we're not cocky about it, we're humble about doing what we think is best and continuing to move toward that goal, wherever it may be. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And maybe to draw people's attention to specific moments where the Ethereum community has shown that. I think that the two examples off the top of my head are first we tried to do proof of stake in one way and then threw it all away and started from scratch and came up with a better system that works. Right. And then the other one I'm thinking about is sharding. Right. And like what that word used to mean was like the things that it means for traditional computers. And now what it means is like not only like a pretty large step away from that, but has like created an entire paradigm around like what blockchain computers are. And so maybe like what you're saying is like, to you, the most important moments aren't these like existential hacks like the DAO or like obviously like high octane moments, like thank God we made it through. But like the, the real moments that define Ethereum are these moments where we as a community say, hey, like the road we're going down is a disaster if we continue. And like, because we can recognize that we are going to stop what we're doing, like make it like, like really think about it and like live our values as much as possible and then like pivot together. **Speaker A:** Yeah, all of that's happening in slow motion every day too. Like I, I'm, I wake up and you know, I'm communicating with people and I realize we are, we're growing in slow motion. But the, the best example I can think of that in, in terms of the community because you know, I, I do not generally work at the research level. I, I, I try to interpret the research and I, but I don't form strong op. But at the community level we had this, this Client diversity issue, I guess a year or two ago where Prism had a lot of market share and everyone says, you know, Prism's the best client. Let's, you know, it's no big deal, let's stick with Prism. And I really spent a lot of time like educating about, well, you know, Ethereum is a multi client design. We are a multi client design so we can have fault tolerance. And at first everybody, you know, like that's, you know, you're, you're overstating it. But over time we began to steer the ship. Like kind of like one tweet at a time or one Reddit post at a time, we began to steer that ship closer and closer to client diversity. We, we got, you know, the exchanges on board and because of our commitment to Ethereum values, we were able to make a dramatic shift in something that at the time seemed kind of impossible, that most people didn't care about. And you know, not even a month after that, Prism had a fault that if we had not had this client diversity, if we hadn't accomplished what we had, the entire network would have stopped. But because of all of that preparation work, because the community cared enough to make noise about it and to, you know, ping their, their provider and say, hey, can you fix this? We were able to improve the network and, and really save it from a fault. **Speaker B:** Yeah, well, and just to like go a little tangential but like one, of course it's so incredibly important for like security reasons and bug reasons and like the crypto economic reasons that we have client diversity. But like, for me the magic of Ethereum isn't really apparent until we achieve client diversity. And like it's in the name, man. Like it's when, when it's like, exists in all these different software implementations. Like what is Ethereum? It's not like this software program. It's like it really exists in the ether. It's like property in the ether that is not on any specific machine or location or attached to any network or attached to any software or like attached to, attached to anything. And I just for me it was the moment where I, I run a rocket pool node. And so like when I, when they were doing PO apps when I did switched over my, I think I was running Lighthouse and Geth and I switched it over. I don't even remember what Nimbus and something else. But like that was a moment for me that like the real like magic of. And again, like what Vitalik put in the damn paper in the first place, like really kind of came together. For me. **Speaker A:** But that's the awesome part of that is you became a part of the process. Like you're no longer just a bystander. Like your voice suddenly matters. And that is really what I want to encourage people to perceive that their, their contributions matter, their voice matters. You know, you have one tenth of an Ether. It matters. It matters what you do with that. It matters how you stake it. It matters, you know, what service you, you do or how you hold that. That is really my goal is to help people realize that there. The goal of Ethereum is not to profit, it's to shepherd this. That's. I don't like religious words really, but to, to, to foster, yeah, this chain into something that's going to be better for humanity in the future. And yes, as a, as a side benefit of that, I hope you make plenty of money. Like you deserve that. If, if you've been. If you foster the chain in a healthy way, by all means, please make ton of money. That's, that's great. **Speaker B:** No, for sure. And I think I definitely, like, I hear like we'll get to it in a moment. Like why it really even matters where you stake your point. One, Ethan, like all that stuff. But for me, I think the magic of crypto and like, hopefully we never lose this, but it's like, like I've. It's not possible anywhere else. Maybe, maybe influencers. Right. But like the pathway to becoming a builder is so clear and it's exactly the same from everyone. For me and like tweeting about like Ethereum and Ethereum threads and basic computer science to Vitalik, which was writing his thoughts on Bitcoin in a magazine. It's like the way in is create content, you know, like create content, put your ideas out there, like develop an opinion, like develop like a community based on like your actual contributions. And like I, that is not something that's possible in like the beer industry where I came from. That's not something that's possible like really outside of the Internet. And you know, I agree. It's just like what Ethereum allows is like individuals to like to live and breathe and like exercise choice in this world and like hopefully forever. But at least right now, like we're still in that phase where it's like you can build like the brand and the network and the wealth that you want just solely based on like the amount of work you're willing to put in. **Speaker A:** Yeah, I have this, it's literally a fantasy, but this, it's, it's a real fantasy. If, if ethereum succeeds in 100 years, that people will look back and they'll say, how did. At that time when decentralization was so foreign, how did this ragtag group of people decentralize a chain and bring something valuable to the world? And I hope that that magnifying glass looks at people like us and says, wow, these people, they shared with other people. **Speaker B:** They. **Speaker A:** They learned and they. They guided other people to make great decisions. Because I really feel like, you know, I've said this a lot at. At its heart, Ethereum is people. It's not. It's not the validator that's, you know, that's just doing a job that I can't do much faster than I can do it. But the validator is really me. It's me choosing the clients and choosing the software and participating with a network. And I look forward to, you know, when I'm 70 years old saying, yeah, I was a part of that movement and maybe it failed, and that's okay, but the work is valuable. It's the right work right now. **Speaker B:** No, for sure. And, you know, I struggle with this a lot with zk, like, when I have conversations with people about ZK and like, you know, the, like, left curve, mid curve, right curve take, like, I'm really starting to feel like the mid curve take is that. Like that the mid curve tape is the ZK removes trust. And the, like, the two side curves are like, ZK is just like another, like, generic tool in, like, the. What makes us different from animals, man? It's that, like, we can trust each other to, like, work together to build something bigger than, like, the. Than individual contributions. Right? And so, like, at the end of the day, like, like, even this thing is too complex, right? Like, Vitalik can't read all the code. Like, no one can read all the code. Like, we are just trusting each other at a certain extent. And so, like, yeah, I think that is kind of how, like, we. We settle on the same idea, which is like, the Ethereum is just people. **Speaker A:** Yeah, that's. It's so interesting. Like, when I think about the things that Vitalik knows about and doesn't know about, like, he is focused on the core protocol. He's not. Not focused on the other hundreds of thousands of things that no one else. Like, does he. Does he know about pudgy penguins? Like, I have no idea, but apparently they're on sale at Target now, and that's great. **Speaker B:** Yeah, I just saw a beer brand with a bored ape on. **Speaker A:** Yeah. Yeah. Like, so, you know, no matter what pedestal you want to put him on. He is still one person with his narrow view of, of Ethereum. And, and it's a very valuable view, but it is, it's one slice of the pie. And the real pie is all of us working together. Definitely there are people whose contributions are more valuable and more important, but there are no few people who could do this without the entire community. And that's why we get like this shared value. **Speaker B:** Yeah, for sure. So let's pivot into moving forward. Although like one day I'd love to just get like some of your takes on like the Last Bubble and everything from Suzu to sbf, but let's look, look forward into like a more promising future and like, so look again. Like we both believe that Ethereum one day could be this like amazing like substrate of our lives. And like maybe we'll save a couple minutes at the end to talk about what like the Ethereum endgame looks like to you. But when you are looking at what like the issues that we need to surmount to get there, let's just put like all the technical and technical implementation issues aside. That's always going to be a problem with technology. But what are the big things that like really freak you out about just making sure we get from A to B? **Speaker A:** Yeah, you know, nothing really freaks me out because I, the way we talk about the community, I'm just doing my part. I'm not, I, I don't take responsibility for whether things succeed or fail. I don't, I don't assume that I'm right. Like I'm probably wrong about a lot of things. And all I'm doing is, is what I believe is my part to add value to Ethereum. And so, you know, the beacon chain is my area of interest and specifically the community around the beacon chain. Because I think that in order for Ethereum to be successful in the long run, in order to maintain this credible neutrality, we need to go back to this empowering individuals. We need to develop the beacon chain in a way that maintains credible neutrality. And there is a very high risk that it's not going to happen. Like will literally only happen if the community demands it, if the people who hold Ether make credible neutrality happen. And so, you know, we debated before the show are like, are we going to name names? I'm not afraid to name names, but it's not about the names, it's about there's always going to be a challenger who wants more than their fair share. And so I see these first five or ten years of the beacon chain as a time to sort of carve it out, hold places, make space for a lot of players so that when it does begin to calm down, when most ether is staked, that when the dust settles it is a truly decentralized chain and not, you know, we were asleep at the wheel, one provider took over, they control 80% of the validators and right now there's nothing we can do about it. My goal is really to just empower the community to, to develop decentralization within this chain. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And so I guess we're talking about Lido, but that's not a surprise to anyone, right? **Speaker A:** Like, I'm not just talking about Lido. You know, there's maybe I'm not like I, I'm not, I'm not against Lido. It's not about Lido for me because if it's, it's gonna be somebody and after Lido it's going to be somebody else. **Speaker B:** No, no, for sure, but just within like. So the, because the question I want to ask you is like looking at the history of Lido up until this point, like do you think that there was a failure of the community to anticipate like just getting to this point or do you think that something else happened? **Speaker A:** I think hindsight is 20 20, you know, to be honest with you, I've asked myself how much responsibility should I take for what, what happens? Like I, I encourage people to wait for better design, staking solutions. I, I said, do you know to me that design isn't optimal. If you wait a while, there's going to be a more optimal design and there will always be a more optimal design design. So I don't fault any, anyone for doing what's in their best interest. Like they saw an opportunity and now I am talking about later. They saw an opportunity, they took it. I don't blame them for that. But what I do expect is for the community to say, hold on, we're building a decentralized chain and we appreciate what you're doing, but we also need to maintain our core value of decentralization. So hold on just a minute while we let some other people also get their foot in the door. And that is so contrary to like everybody's like, oh, economics and capitalism. And I, you know, Ethereum is not, it doesn't exist for anyone's financial gain. It is not, it is not only an economic chain, it has economic incentives. But the future potential of Ethereum is much bigger than economic incentives. And if we don't, if we don't Pay attention and you know, make space for a lot of seats at this table, a lot of different players at this table. Then there'll be nothing worth fighting for later. It'll be, you know, one provider basically. There won't be any credible neutrality on the chain. It will be, you might as well rename it to whoever that, that controlling entity is. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And I think just stepping away from like the centralization problem for a moment and like going on this like a little more theoretic tangent, like I like to people who say like it's anti capitalist, it's anti whatever to like expect people to like take a step back and make like long term focused choices is like who says capitalism is like God's gift to man? You know, and like I, if anything I think that Ethereum itself is like a pretty blatant rejection of capitalism. And like we can talk about that in a lot of different ways but like to me the biggest one is like we have seen the result of every other alt l one that is like essentially just like well what happens if you allow the founders and allow the investors and allow like everything to go as hyper capitalist as possible. And like, like there's a lot, I'm. **Speaker A:** Just, we've seen that in the US like that's where we are now. It's the problem, it's the thing we're getting away from. **Speaker B:** No, and like there's just so many times where we, we as a community did like step back, slow things down like eat a lot of shit like and make choices that were like what capitalism does is it strips out the context of like everyone. And part of what the context is is that like individuals that are part of communities that will live like far longer than what we do, than individual lives. Right. And like it just makes everything super individualistic and like cutthroat and whatever. But like that's what's different about Ethereum. **Speaker A:** Yeah, yeah, that's, you know, that makes me think of this take I've been seeing where you know, this whatever provider is, you know, recognizes this is a winner take all situation. And we've just decided that, that we're going to be the ones to win because somebody has to and it might as well be us. And I'm like, wait, that is, that's the most greedy perspective I can imagine. Because if it's a winner take all, we should think about who that winner actually should be. And it really should be home stakers. It should be individual holders, not any like organization who is like hey, we deserve all of this, if, if you're really winner takes all, then the winner ought to be individuals. And, and so, yes, I'm all about, let's do winner take all. The winner needs to be the Ethereum community, the Ethereum holders. It needs to be humanity. And so, yeah, that's, that's fine if you want winner take all, but it's not going to be you because you've ordained yourself that, you know, you deserve that because you don't. You don't, you don't get to just take the chain. Sorry, little rant. **Speaker B:** No, no, for sure. Yeah. And again, I think it's just. I think it's like a really sad state of affairs that, like, the only way we can interpret any of this well, and the reason why I love this podcast and because we can have these, like, long, nuanced conversations, but, like, it does seem like in public, the only way we can interact with each other is through, like, like, just the most perverted neoliberal liberalism possible. And, like, I don't know why it's, like, wild to think, like, hey, centralization is a bad thing. It compromises literally the entire value of what we're trying to do here. And, like, maybe individuals might want to take, like, choices that, that protect the long term and not, like, their individual, like, bag. And yeah, it makes me sad and it, but also, like, the history of Ethereum is that, like, despite the conversation, like, we still push through to do, like, interesting collective stuff. **Speaker A:** Yeah, I really feel like there, there's kind of a perversion of economic principles. Like this idea that, that these inhumane economic principles are the prevailing, like, they, they are going to win in the end, you know, this race to the bottom. And I just, I just don't see the world that way. I just don't believe that we're all damned. Like, I do believe that people who work together can create something beautiful, and I believe that Ethereum can be that thing. And that's exciting to me. Like, I don't know that it's true, but I'm willing to believe it. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And here's to hoping. Right. And again, I think that's the path to, like, not financial advice, but that's the path to, like, 50k ether 100, like, these outrageous, like, like clown car numbers that, like, really represent an Ethereum taking over the world. And like, I believe Ethereum is inevitable. Like, I don't necessarily think, like, the credibly neutral, decentralized Ethereum is inevitable. And, like, yeah, you know, we have to work for it. **Speaker A:** Yeah, that's you. You hear me say a lot of times, like, I don't know the future of Ethereum, I have to keep it in my head, this kind of objectivity that says, if there is something better, then I have to be willing to go to that thing. And I did that. I learned that from Bitcoin to Ethereum. I had this realization, if there is something better, I have to be willing to accept reality and move toward it without being stuck in this, you know, this state that says, this is what I chose. So this is the best thing. And so I will, I will accept if, if Ethereum goes down the wrong path. I will look for things that, that serve humanity better. Um, but I'm very hopeful that together we can all make this the thing for sure. **Speaker B:** So I think without, like, I don't really know if there's much more to say about, like, eth staking without rehashing just the exact same crap that we've seen on Twitter, like, over and over again. Like, so unless, like, if, unless you have any, like, final, like, thoughts on, like, the E staking and like, kind of that decentralization point, like, I'd love to kind of, like, continue down the path to talk about other decentralization risks. **Speaker A:** I would like to get a thing out there is that I really look forward to everyone running a node at home. Like, if you're on the sidelines, if you're, if you're watching this go past you and you're not a part of it, I really encourage people to launch a node at home that is, you know, a consensus client and execution client. Even if you can't be a staker, take steps to get there. I'm very excited about this launch of Diva. That is one ether and your node at home. And you are a staker. As we move forward, there are going to be more opportunities like this. And I think that the way to catch those opportunities is to take the steps you can now. So, like, you know, I don't have an Ether, but I have this computer, you know, tinker with a node, get it going, get involved with it. Because letting it happen and not participating is. Is kind of. I don't. It's not extractive, but you're missing your opportunity to be a part of the future. And I don't want anyone to miss that opportunity. **Speaker B:** No, for sure. I mean, personally, I started staking in January. No, no. Of December of 2021. And so, like, I can, like, personally attest to, like, the fact that, like, running your own node makes you Understand Ethereum in a way that like you can't pick up off Twitter. Like you, you just like, it is like rolling your sleeves up and like figuring out like what even is this thing that we're using. And you know, like, even if you can't stake to Super Fizz's point, like I use it as my RPC client. So like, like, you know, alchemy or Infura, like they don't know what I'm doing, which is not even that interesting anyway. But I just. **Speaker A:** No, but you're living the principles. Like you're interacting directly with the chain as it was intended like that. That's the way that Ethereum was designed. And there are all these services who make it easier and find simplicity is good. But by running your own node, by using it as your RPC provider, you're interacting directly with a chain. Like you are, you're a real part of the process. **Speaker B:** Yeah, and I think, I think it is like a tall order for a lot of people. Like a huge part of it is just like fear of the command line which you have to get involved with. Like a large part of it is like pretty nasty uptime requirements, like if you are offline, like you have to pay for it, whether it's just with catching back up or with your actual like penalties. And like I think the big one is like bandwidth. Like who, who can support that kind of band? Like there's lots of things. And I think the answer to all that stuff is like we have a roadmap like the, the Ethereum endgame, which again we'll get to in the last like five minutes here, but is like, is like light clients that like don't have to sync, they instantly turn on, can check in with the chain and like start validating. And yeah, I mean like the people who spend the time to like understand what's going on now while all of the bare metal is exposed, are going to run laps around the people who download like the Eth Stake app and then just like push the stake button. **Speaker A:** Yeah, that's, you know, my intention is not necessarily that everyone is successful, it's just that, like, I hope, you know, a hundred people listen to this, 50 of them try it, five of them will succeed. But those other 45 people, they didn't fail. They gained experience, they have a better understanding. Maybe they try it again in six months, maybe they tried it again in a year and they're like, oh yeah, I remember this, I remember that, you know, well, that I have to have an NVMe I remember, you know how, where that, what slot that goes into and oh yeah, I remember there are two different kinds of clients. It's not that I expect everyone to get it the first try, but you have to allow yourself to be exposed to it and accept when you know it's just not going to happen. But you're building that foundation and that's those multiple exposures over time will benefit you. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And just like to really hammer on the points of this more. It's just, yeah, you know, it's all been said. It's just like if you actually believe in what we're doing, like this is what it means to be using Ethereum. And if you're here for the money, like just go on DYDX and just like lose it all faster and just like save yourself some time. Right. **Speaker A:** But it's, it's funny you say like we've said this all before. I, I, in private, I'm like, why would anyone want to interview me? Like, I just say the same five things over and over. Stake from home. Like I, I can say it a lot of different ways, but my message is not really that complex. It is like decentralized, empower the network. Stake from home. That's, that's our podcast. **Speaker B:** No, for sure. And again, I like, for every reason that we've talked about, like it's the right thing to do, blah, blah, blah. But the biggest thing is that like you'll just actually learn what's going on in a, like, will put you in a different class of people than most people in our industry. So take from home for every single reason. Yeah. Awesome, man. So like, let's, let's move on a little bit. And like, for me personally, I see like a couple different places where Ethereum is like, has risks of being centralized and like the big one we've talked about is in like the actual eth stake, but like the one that's like really starting to become more and more scary to me is like in this under layer that has been created in first MEV Boost and then Proposer builder separation. And so I guess like for the audience, can you in like two sentences try to like describe what that setup is and then can you talk through like, do you see any risks there of, of like existential risk to Ethereum? **Speaker A:** Yeah, it's, it's a tough one for me and so simplified. What it is, Mev is the idea that if you have a broad view of the network, you can organize transactions in a way to maximize your payment for every Block. And so we have these, these organizations called Searchers and Builders. And so they, they are watching the memory pool and they're organizing all of the transactions in a very complex, correct way to give the highest payout to the block proposer. And so any rational actor is going to say, of course I want the highest payout. And they're going to have, you know, a couple feeds of builders and they're going to choose the one that's going to give them the highest feed. And that's right, the highest pay. And the centralizing part of that is we end up with maybe four or five entities building blocks for the entire network. When the design is that individuals at home, vanilla stakers, build blocks from their house. And it's complicated. Like, this was something that I deeply considered dying on a hill for until I listened to a lot of researchers who are like, fizz, this is the way it's going to be right now. Be patient. We have solutions coming. It's okay. And admittedly, it's hard for me to hear that. I, I think about how deeply I want to go into it. And there are some things that, like when it comes to something like Rocket Pool, I did not want Rocket Pool to use MEV Boost. But any service who doesn't maximize profit is, is not competitive. Like they, they cannot remain competitive. And this is, you know, there's always this lowest common denominator, the race to the bottom, that if, if services that we value aren't competitive, then we're never going to build market share, we're never going to continue decentralizing the network. So as it stands right now, a tremendous centralization in Ethereum is the idea that about four entities build, I believe 80% of the blocks that are proposed. And that is an admitted weakness. And yeah, in time we'll have that proposer builder separation where proposers, builders will build these blocks and proposers will bid on them and there will be kind of an equilibrium so that, you know, it kind of, I guess, demilitarizes the situation. But even then, one of the things we're seeing now is that building a relayer is very expensive and there's not a lot of profit in it. So you're seeing relayers drop out, which further centralizes block production. So, yeah, I mean, it's not my area of expertise, but it is something that, you know, I've given a lot of thought to. And it's just not a hill that is right for me now. **Speaker B:** No, and I think just to help the audience understand like what this Actually means in practice and why it's a scary thing. Right? So it was last summer, right? The tornado cache was sanctioned. And like how that manifested in block building was like you could go to all these like super scary sites that would show you that like 80, 90% of like blocks with like addresses associated with tornado cache were like being censored. Right. And like what that really meant was that like two or three of the block builders who were like very effective, like had chosen that policy and because like they were the most effective and there was no real competition. Like that's just what ended up happening was the like US government censorship of code, actually censored the code. Like, and so like there's real like risks that if this whole thing is like captured or too small or just like subject to like basically like old men with too much power like that effectively like Ethereum can be like censored or captured or whatever. Right. And so I, we can talk through like some of the things that that like lead me to believe that like this probably the right path and all that stuff in a second. But I just like kind of wanted to pick apart one point that you made, which was that like, we have to be profit maximizing. You specifically, you're talking about rocket pool and adding in MEV boost. We have to be profit maximizing or else we're not competitive. That flies like a little bit in the face of the conversation we had like 20 minutes ago about how well we should like expect and hope that this community is not about profit maximizing. And so I guess like, is. Is this about developing a framework where you measure the risk associated with a new thing and then have to measure that against like the profits that are possible and then like make some sort of matrix about what's acceptable or not? Or is there is this just the hard part about building Ethereum is that you have to hold all these contradictions in your head at the same time? **Speaker A:** Yeah, to be honest with you, I think it is a lot about holding those contradictions in your head. It's. And I, I question myself a lot because I have like these high ideals for Ethereum. And I also. It's not, it's not appropriate for me to expect anyone to hold any of my high ideals, but some of them I'm picking and choosing like things like if you participate in a decentralized network, you should believe in decentralization. Like, I'm okay pushing that value because it is, it's literally like in, you know, it's a decentralized chain when it comes to something like MEV boost. I have my own thoughts, my own values and that, you know, it's not something that I think is, is healthy or good for the chain. But I also have to, I have to make some compromises and say everyone doesn't think the way that I do. Like I, I'm not here to be a missionary. I'm here to like, to spread best practice, to develop a sense of community values. And I cannot, I, I don't want to be like Don Quixote. I don't want to, to find these impossible battles and fight them until I don't have any energy left. I want to pick things that are the most meaningful, where I believe we can make progress. And that's where I want to put my energy. And that's really why I put so much energy into these stake from home nodes because I believe if I can do anything, I can get someone somewhere to launch a node from home. And every time that happens, like I have just this dropping the bucket of victory. So yeah, it's, it's not about me having my way. It's not about like this is how I think the change should be. So everyone has to do this. It's really about what values can, we all can the most of us agree on and then, and then let's take those and, and kind of spread those so that even more of us agree on those values. It's building consensus. **Speaker B:** Yeah, no, yeah, without, with at risk of being like too cliche. It's like we live in a society, right? And it's like the, the path to being a successful Ethereum is like to have values that are like as strongly held as anything that you hold. But then like to have your second principle be like, I need to figure out a way to like come to consensus with the people around me so that we can like progress the chain man, all the, the metaphors are working right? We need to come to consensus to progress the chain. **Speaker A:** All I do is build consensus around decentralization. Like that is literally all I do. And I, I very much accept that there are some fruit that are out of reach or maybe not even worth grasping for. And I'm very much focusing on the things that, that already has a strong forward momentum. You know, I, I ask myself about this, you know, the self limiting thing. A lot of people push back about self limiting and you know, is it worth it? Should I be doing this? But at the same time, most people recognize the value in leaving seats at the table for new operators and recognizing that like 80% of us are moving in the right in the same direction to me means we're building consensus. And the other 20%, maybe they'll get on and maybe they won't. But I can solidify this group together as the core Ethereum community and we can build that value together. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And just to like, bring us back to the question about, you know, proposer builder separation and like, what is, you know, the reason why? I think that at the end of the day, like, we're in a scary state right now maybe and like, there's a lot of reasons to be worried, but like, I do think it's ultimately the right path is because like standing still doesn't mean like that you're not going to have problems. Right. And like the problem that we have without proposer builder separation is that some validators or some nodes or whatever. Right. Like some entities will really be able to extract a lot more value out of the chain than others. And like, if you take that even one logical step further, that means eventually Ethereum will be captured and centralized and like, it'll be over. Right. And so like, the real question is like, how do you deal with like these problems where like expertise and like time and money, like money that you have before you start, like really make you more competitive. Like what we do is like, we break it open with an open market where everyone can compete fair. And like, I think that's like really the lesson of like EIP 1559. Like that's the lesson of proposer builder separation. It's like when we find like these things that see and that seem inevitably decentralizing, we look to introduce markets. **Speaker A:** Yeah, definitely. **Speaker B:** Yeah, yeah. **Speaker A:** I can't even add to it. It's. You're right on. I def. I agree with all of it. **Speaker B:** Yeah, I know. And I think it's about like, that's like a good idea in theory and then in practice it's about like fostering a community that makes choices that like, get us to that end goal and. Or not be able to capture it by like the Do Kwons or the SBFs on the way. **Speaker A:** Well, that's, you know, I think we both agree with this idea of open markets, but we also, we have to set the stage for it. It has to be, it has to be fostered. It. It isn't. Yes, I believe in open markets, but I don't believe in like Savage. Savage, you know, fights to the death. Like, let's set up a healthy environment for this principle to thrive, not apply it in every situation. That it doesn't fit. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And, like, I definitely don't want to get political here, but, like, when people say, like, the government, like, restricts markets, it's like, just like, a total misunderstanding of, like, what a market is. Right. Because, like, without a government, it's literally jungle rules. It's like who has the biggest teeth or guns or, like, whatever. And, like, what government does or, like, what consensus does or any of this does is give us a framework to, like, compete or to, like, resolve differences or whatever without resorting to stabbing each other. Right. And so, like, you're. **Speaker A:** You're in America and we're talking about. About government, and I get nervous because I'm like, so many opinions. I know. **Speaker B:** Like, well, this is a great. That's a great time to bail since we're in a sketchy area. So, Super Fizz, man, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time. I very sure that everyone knows where to find you, but just in case, can. Can you share where to find you and then maybe share anything? Any resources that people should check out if they're interested in, like, learning what it means to be a home staker. **Speaker A:** Yeah. So I'm at Super Fizz on Twitter and actually Superfiz everywhere you might look. And I enjoy Reddit. ETH Finance, the ETH Finance Daily is my kind of hangout in terms of resources. Ethstaker has a lot of great resources. I founded ETH in like 2018, and I've kind of separated from them a little bit, but I still really have a lot of faith and, and high value in their product. Esteaker is a great resource for people who are just getting started staking. My favorite place to find them is also on Reddit. Reddit.com r ethstaker their motto. And they have a great discord as well. Their motto is, well, I created it is welcoming first and knowledgeable second. And the idea being that if you welcome people and they feel comfortable, then they're more able to learn. And that's. That's really the goal of each sticker. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And another one I'll throw in there, which you don't have to, like, buy the token. You don't have to use it. But like, the Rocket Pool docs are just like, really, really, like, well thought through and like, just helpful to understanding on to, like, what it means to run a node, like, how to actually do it. Like, just skip through the parts about, like, Rocket Pool. If, like, that's not your jam. But there's a lot of like, really, really Good resources. **Speaker A:** I'm very comfortable saying right now. If you have 32 ether, you should stake from home. If you have 10.4 ether, then Rocket Pool is an absolutely awesome platform. They're trustless, open source, decentralized and permissionless. Like they. And I, I try not to be a commercial because anyone who knows me knows that I like, I don't shut up about Rocket Pool. I think I did good this time. But it's, it's really a great way for people with less ether, even if you have more ether, to make deep and substantial contributions to the health of Ethereum. So it's a great platform. **Speaker B:** And like we all love Rocket Pool because it's like really the only decentralized option other than doing it yourself. But like shout out to all the amazing open platforms coming up, like Diva, like ssv, like Stakewise, like Puffer, like there are so many that are like really going to make this like a much more decentralized and vibrant and like innovative and competitive ecosystem. **Speaker A:** Well, and that's, that's the thing, you know, I don't want to go too far back, but if, if we stake everything now, if we, if we ossify, you know, one leader, it's very difficult for any other quality providers to get a seat at the table. So all I'm really encouraging people to do is self limit those providers to 22% or ask them to self limit to 22% so that there's a lot of room for other providers at the table. Really great new solutions that are coming to the market. So I'm very excited about them, just like you said. **Speaker B:** Yeah. And it's like hard to remember this but like we really only are a year out from the merge. Like it's not surprising that like it's just now that new staking platforms are coming out. **Speaker A:** Yeah. I mean, you know, it's funny. I really thought they would be here sooner. I thought that there would be more healthy competition. When Rocket Pool launched, I thought it was going to be the first of an onslaught and it didn't unfold that way. But that doesn't, it's not the end of the game. It just means that the community needs to adjust expectations to make sure that we maintain a healthy chain. Yeah. **Speaker B:** And look like the positive spin I'll put on it is that the innovation, like just like maelstrom, like didn't happen with Rocket Pool, like that was just the one on its own. Right. But we're almost lucky that this maelstrom is happening on the second phase because like, we have these brand new technologies which are like DVT and, well, like, lots of, like, really interesting stuff that's coming down the pipeline. **Speaker A:** So DVT is going to change everything. And people who are listening should really pay attention to DVT because it's going to allow anyone who wants to to stake from home with less than 32 ether. So if you're serious about that, keep an eye out on these DVT solutions. And please, please, especially if you live in like a really far fetched place where no one else is. Steak from home, that is. That's really how we build a more robust network. **Speaker B:** Yeah. All right, man. Thank you so much. I don't want to take up any more of your time, but just very much appreciated and hope to see you soon. **Speaker A:** Yeah. Thank you so much. Rex.